Have you ever considered that your outside hobbies or activities could actually influence the way you work? In this episode of On the Mic with Ad Results Media, Nate Spell and Lindsay Smith are joined by ARM team members Tony Carnevale, Brit Garcia, and Ari Diozon to chat through their out-of-work hobbies and how they bring creativity into the workplace.

Podcast Transcript

 (0s): We actually use Scribd in our home. 

 (3s): Do you really love your sleep number? And we do 

 (6s): Busy has been 

 (24s): Hi listeners and welcome back to on the mic with Ad Results Media. In this episode, Nate spell and I are joined by Brit Garcia Ari Diozon and Tony Carnavale to discuss creative expression and how creativity outside of the workplace can lend itself to on the clock work. We will be treading through theater, hobby, collecting improv, and much more. So let's get started with a brief introduction for our listeners who may not be familiar with you all Brit, why don't we start with you? 

 (48s): Hello, Nathan and Lindsay. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. My name is Britt Garcia and I work with ad results as our creative operations specialist. And that's been a very fun path and getting to build team together in my free time. The creative stuff that I like to do in my hobbies are geared towards the theater world. I've been performing since I was a child, whether that was like UIL stuff in the great state of Texas and doing like poetry and impromptu speaking, I've just had a bone for performing and have done it since a young age. 

And that kind of translated into theater and stage work as I grew up and then eventually into directing and, and being part of the creative board for a local theater in Houston. 

 (1m 33s): Hi, I'm Tony Carnavale. Thanks so much for having me Lindsay and Nate. I'm the creative director here at Ad Results Media and I work very closely as you know, with Brit and both Lindsay and Nate, as well as our third guest, who will be joining soon. For many, many years, I performed improv comedy. I don't do it currently. I'm actually thinking about getting back into it, but in New York and Los Angeles, I did a lot of improv in the upright citizens brigade theater communities, as well as independent shows and some other theaters. 

I was on a national touring company with a group called Chicago city limits, and we got to travel all over the country and do shows at community theaters and colleges and stuff. And I actually got paid a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of money for doing those shows, which technically made me a professional. So that's a badge of honor that I will wear to the grave. And I think improv has really informed a lot of aspects of my life, especially work, but not limited to work. 

And I think anyone who's spent a lot of time doing improv would probably say the same. And I'm excited to talk about it more 

 (2m 45s): And hello, I'm Ari. I'm a senior copywriter here with ad results and my hobby is collecting hobbies. I'm always looking to try out new things. Some of my hobbies include journaling pen, palling, roller skating, professional wrestling. And in the past I used to play roller Derby at a competitive level. So I'm I'm into anything, everything 

 (3m 10s): Well, we're both so excited to have all of you on the podcast, and I'm super excited to hear you guys talk more about all of these many hobbies. So you've talked about like so many different things, like obviously there's a huge range of skills that go from each of these, but I'm curious to hear from each of you, how you see these creative outlets become a sort of creative inlet for your work at arm. So Brit, we'll start with you. 

 (3m 36s): Yeah. So just the theater world itself is so eclectic. And so it really gives you like a broad kind of range of things that you experienced and what you're exposed to and personality types. And, you know, the varied shows that you read in the beginning, I had done, I was doing copywriting in the beginning of the ad results. And so in the very beginning, it helped with, you know, reading different writing styles from different plays and different playwrights. It really helped you tap into like the structure of how you write and, and connecting with your audience. And on the acting side for writing the motivations as an actor, when you're diving into a character, one of your things you're asking yourself is, does this make sense? 

You know, what is my motivation behind this? What connects me with the people that I'm on stage with and to the characters and relationships are what bring a show to life. And so on the writing aspect, just having experience with, with knowing how to connect to people, and then understanding motivations helped with writing from the more practical approach as I, as I grew into creative ops and things like that, more of the operation side, really pivoting community theater, anything, and everything will change. And you just roll with the punches and it's a collaborative effort, and you're always working with different people and it's an opportunity to connect with different people. 

Then finally, at the point where I am now, as far as being on a board with a theater, there's always deliverables. You want to make sure that your show gets the best publicity that it can. You're pulling in. You're doing the most, that you can with your audience and really building out the community and getting those, selling those tickets to keep your doors open. And so now these last two years having been involved on the board side, it's really helped me from a management aspect and timeline and the different components that need to go together to really push the creative along and like all the behind the scenes work that happens with creative.

 (5m 15s): As far as improv and my experience and how that kind of applies to my role at ad results in previous roles as well. It's similar to Brits theater background in that it is literally theater performed on stage, but as implied by the term improv, it's all made up without a script on the spots for the first time and the last time never to be seen again. And sometimes it's great. Sometimes it's not so great, but, but you're there and you're doing it and it's going to happen regardless. And when you're creating something on stage, without a script in front of an audience, you really have to be tuned in to your scene partner and your ability to perceive how they're feeling and how their character might be feeling and anticipate potential things that they may or may not do. 

And kind of build out things that you might do all kind of takes place super fast and almost imperceptibly in your head once you've been doing improv awhile. And I think that really applies to interpersonal relations in real life. Also, I think the ability to kind of empathize with what someone you're in a meeting with is thinking is incredibly important. And I think I've really developed that skill through improv. Another thing is you learn very quickly and doing improv that you can get a cheap, quick laugh by being kind of a jerk on stage, but you learn equally quickly. 

That's, that's not a way to build a scene. That's going to sustain itself. And in order to build a scene that has legs and also not make your scene partner hate you, you very quickly learn that you have to be kind in many ways when developing the scene, you have to be generous in giving focus to your scene partner. And I think that is an aspect of emotional intelligence that is so important in improv, as well as every other aspect of, of my life, including work. I try really hard to be very generous with people that I work with. 

And hopefully you guys don't disagree, but that would be, that'd be a funny turn anyway. Yeah, that's all I'm going to say for now. 

 (7m 18s): So I think a huge part of creative work, especially with writing is experimentation. So being able to try out new things and think of problem solving and more unexpected ways I think is always, is always good. And it, it helps you come up with new ideas that maybe you might not have before or haven't thought of before. So trying out new things, thinking of problem solving in different unexpected ways is always something that is welcome in a creative space, but with kind of a Jack of all trades approach to hobbies outside of work, you can kind of get a little bit of firsthand experience with a lot of different things which can in turn, feed your creativity in different ways. 

And that's why I like to try a whole bunch of different things. That way I can connect different dots and feel different feelings and surprise myself. And hopefully that comes out in how I write 

 (8m 17s): Now, Ari, one thing stuck out to me about something you said earlier, you brought up pin palling. Are you pin palling with strangers or 

 (8m 26s): Yes. So I actually run a stationary server for adults because there are a lot of children that are very interested in pens and paper too. So I decided to kind of create a space for adults who never grew out of that. And part of our community is basically a pen pal finding channel where different people from all around the world, we have people from France, Germany, South Africa, Brazil, throughout the states and Canada. 

And you, you basically post a little bio about yourself and some things that you're interested in, what kinds of things that your pen pals can expect? Like if you're an artist and you want to send things out, or if you'll send pictures of your dogs or whatever, 

 (9m 11s): We all love those. 

 (9m 13s): It's a fun way to connect with people around the world. And once again, you know, gain new perspectives.

 (9m 18s): So have you found that like connecting with all of those different people, is there any crossover there with your work at ad results, especially since we work with so many different clients? 

 (9m 26s): I think so. Yeah. For pen palling, for sure. Because you're, you're talking to an audience that you don't personally know yet, right? So just from, I guess their, their pen pal classifieds are a little bit like a creative brief, where you have a little bit, you have a little bit of the things that they're interested in and the way that you can kind of expand on that, I guess, for a, a creative brief and for a pen pal is you take the little nuggets of information that you're given and you try and find like what that human connection is like. 

Okay. So you say that you love gardening. What kinds of plants do you really like? Are you a fan of trailing plants? Are you a fan of succulents? There's there's whole little worlds to expand upon in whatever interest there is. So that way it doesn't get too stale after, you know, one or two letters. 

 (10m 18s): Right, right. 

 (10m 19s): Do people right. In all different kinds of languages on this, 

 (10m 22s): Mostly English. But I would assume that if two people from Germany decided to be pen pals, they probably speak to each other in German, instead of 

 (10m 31s): What strikes me about what all of you brought up is how these creative channels for you guys. It's not just bringing in more creativity to your work. It's also building all these other skills that I don't think people necessarily associate some of the sort of, you know, like the soft skills that go with communication with something like performing or the hard skills of like organization and communication with all of the behind the scenes. Like if you've done theater, I know a lot of us on here, I've at least done theater to some extent. I only did theater a little bit in high school, but what really stuck out to me as someone who really didn't feel like I was a part of the theater world before I did a show was how the backstage stuff was equally like important and respected. 

There was no like front of house, back of house. Like everyone was like, this was one house and the people that were doing set and the people that were doing the behind the scenes stuff were revered and all of those skills like really translate. So anyway, I guess that was a bit of a tangent, but I just think it's something that if you're thinking about creativity, you sometimes it gets kind of floofy and there's a lot of really tangible, really practical things that come in from all of that. 

 (11m 40s): Yeah. I think that's really true. I think that's the creative aspect of improv in particular is, is helpful to what I do at work, but I, I really think that everything else that I've kind of picked up through improv is way more helpful. So I really, I, I think that's a great point now. 

 (11m 56s): Yeah. And I especially liked too when you're thinking about, cause I think a lot with creativity and then even with performing and things like that, there's such a big infants emphasis on the final product. Right. And the show was really great. And, but I think sometimes we don't always acknowledge or maybe it's just how fast things move and how, especially in a production all this time is dedicated. And you kind of forget to look back at the process at the end of it. Right. And, and take what you gained from that. And I think that's kind of the same in creative. Like, you know, even when you're writing a draft maybe, and it's not that those first couple of ones, aren't where you want to land something about them draws you to where you need to go. 

And whether it's, you need to learn something about how to connect better in a piece, or maybe like reading a client's voice better. I think the process in all of these kinds of creative avenues, there's little things, not only from like the end final product that we can say, I got to do this show or, you know, the things that we create. It's also the process through creating those things that I think really helps us grow as well. 

 (12m 53s): Yeah. I mean, just being able to think of event planning and all the backstage stuff for performing, you also kind of get a different insight into how things are perceived as an audience member versus being in the show or backstage for, for event planning or anything like that. Because then you, you have a more high level picture of how everything fits together in service of the show or the event. 

And you can see how everything, even though it feels super hectic, everything still seems smooth on the audience side because of everybody's work ethic and their creativity that all kind of meshes into one thing. 

 (13m 39s): So Britt, I know that you're a little more on the operation side and things in your position can get tedious at times. So how do you bring kind of that level of creativity into that aspect of work to kind of, you know, keep things going and keep things rolling? Because I don't think people realize just how many moving parts are behind the scenes. Like people are like, oh, I got my, I got my copy, but they don't realize, you know, everything that goes into us receiving and having to traffic and get confirmations and everything. So how do you kind of keep up when things get a little tedious? 

 (14m 12s): Absolutely. Yeah. I mean operations, you definitely, it's a mind shift. There's still creative moments. I mean, just in the nature of working in advertising, something is going to change in messaging somewhere in the world. Something is going to happen and there's going to be a creative problem for the team to solve. So, I mean, in the very immediate kind of like view of things, there's, you know, from week to week, we don't always know what's going to happen. I can have as full of a picture of what we're going to be working on to start the week, but things will change. And so there's kind of being creative and knowing how to pivot the team there. And I think theater lends itself to that as well as a performer and just live theater things happen. 

We wrote the punches and make things as, as smooth as we can. So definitely from that approach as far as, you know, if the team needs to pivot, and I know that we've got, you know, certain networks that I have deadlines that may be different than others and making sure we prioritize things there. But I think too, from the creative approach and how to kind of like spice up the ops world, one of the biggest things that I've found is really like connecting with our external partner and our intern. I mean, naturally we're already connecting with our internal teams because we're, we all work for the same organization, but connecting with the external partners and that relationship building that I talked about on stage before that even really helps and where you might have a network that doesn't necessarily understand our viewpoint as an organization. 

And like, this is where our holdup is. And we're really trying to deliver here for you in building those relationships. It just makes everything so much smoother. Like your, the networks understand our position. We are able to then better intake their requests and process and kind of make the thing, you know, the process smoother for everybody. 

 (15m 50s): I love that. I think the idea that creativity is opening you up to making better, more human connections. I think that's such, I mean, everyone talks about business being relationships, but it truly is like you're working with so many different teams and if you don't have that openness and that willingness, and also to put yourself out there a little bit, cause it's kind of both, like you have to go a little bit further to connect sometimes and yeah. I just think that's a really cool insight. 

 (16m 16s): And Tony, I can only imagine with you having to be on your toes during improv can definitely help you be on your toes when curve balls get thrown your way. Yeah. 

 (16m 28s): Yeah, absolutely. I think client calls in particular, I've brought so many things I've learned from improv to client calls because you really can never know what to expect sometimes. And I've had to do a lot of fancy footwork sometime now. And then when a client will throw you a question that you may not have been as prepared for that you want it to be. So that can be incredibly helpful. And also just kind of connecting the ability to connect with a client on a human level, I think is really helpful. 

Just engaging with them in a way that makes them feel like their encounter with you is a highlight of their day. It can be a really great step toward having a productive call and you don't have to do much to make them feel that way because everybody in this industry is very busy and not everyone is particularly considerate about how other people are feeling all the time. So if you just do a little something that educates your re remember something funny, they said on a previous call or that you're interested in some aspect of their life like legitimately interested, I think that can, that can really go a long way. 

You know, a lot of this is actually, and I never read this book, but a lot of the stuff that I think improv has taught me has parallels to things that I've sort of absorbed osmotically by living in the world that people say is in the Dale Carnegie book, how to win friends and influence people that, you know, every time I hear something about that book, I think, yeah, that's that's right on, but I haven't read it. So maybe I shouldn't talk about it 

 (17m 59s): Now, Nate, I think that anyone who listened to our previous conversation about music within podcasting may know what you do outside of ad results, but what do you, what do you partake in creatively outside of work? 

 (18m 11s): Oh, well I would say that mostly I do a lot of creativity with food, but music has been a huge part of my life. And I kind of relate to where Ari is talking about being a sort of a generalist. Like I I've kind of just come to terms with the fact that I like doing a lot of things and I like exploring a few. I tend to gravitate to a few areas, mostly music and food, but I'm actually taking up like some art stuff lately. And it's just, it's always fun to, to put yourself through the paces again of learning something new. 

It's really discouraging whenever you're just starting out to pick up a musical instrument, but the first time you can play a song all the way through. There's just nothing like that feeling. And I had that experience over the whole quarantine, you know, moment that we had in 2020, where everything was like shutting down. I had that, I was one of those people with bread who just like went off. The deep end is in the sourdough. And that moment of pulling out the first, truly successful loaf of bread was delicious. 

And also just one of the most like soul satisfying things. And I do think that it, it helps in a lot of ways at work too, but, but I think just like for my myself, like having something like that creatively is so important. 

 (19m 28s): Yeah. I mean, for trying out different stuff, like you said, or teaching herself different things, there's also a lot of straight up failures that you, that you run into because you're starting off something completely new. So you, you don't know how to do something, right. And you're putting yourself out there to learn. So I think being able to be comfortable with failure actually gives you more freedom to be more experimental because then you're not scared if something doesn't work out or if something doesn't execute or complete the way that you kind of envisioned in the beginning, because you can always try something else and you can adjust and learning new things and trying out new hobbies really pushes you to push past that fear of failure and that fear of things not working out because you're able to trust yourself a lot more with let's, let's try something else. 

Let's do something different. 

 (20m 22s): All right. I think that's a super great point. And one thing that I have really come to believe lately, that I'm trying to think of a better way to say it, because the way I say it sounds really self-helpy and I, and kind of, and, and almost trite. So I want to find a better way to say it. But one thing that I think is very true is failure is not the opposite of success. Failure is a step on the way to success. It's a component of success because with failure comes learning. And I know that I can say that with all of you guys, because you are all creative folks and you know, you, you know, in your bones, that that is true. 

I ha I did say that once to someone who, who is not as I think attuned to creative stuff, and I could see on her face like a look of she recoiled a little bit, because you're not supposed to even allow the concept of failure into your, into your space. Like it's like a folk ha. And which maybe I'm a little bit of a contrarian because that just made me want to lean into that even more. 

 (21m 29s): Do you think it's because it's like this binary idea you've either succeeded or you failed. There's not this idea that like, like, okay, we're almost a lot of us are creative in the written word. And it's like, writing is editing. Writing is rewriting. And the by definition you start wrong, I think, is it Anne Lamont? She wrote this book called bird by bird. And I think she had this idea of like the shitty first draft. She's not the first person to say something like this, but it's the idea is like, if what's holding you back is the fear of writing a bad draft. 

You will never get to a good draft. 

 (22m 1s): That's absolutely true. And it's, it's, it's so important. And I think in a lot of work environments, that concept is anathema because failure to too many people feels like weakness and it feels like you're doing something wrong. When in fact, I think the ability to fail and persist is strength. And I think everyone who writes knows that everyone who performs on stage knows that for sure. 

 (22m 28s): I think a lot of this can really be adapted to the various positions within advertising. I know that we talk a lot about podcasting and right now we're focusing a lot on creativity, but I think that even, you know, let's say if you're on the media team, you can approach your buys creatively and you should feel comfortable to, you know, take risks sometimes in, in the shows that you pitch and in the media plans that you put together and, and not being afraid to fail, because that's just going to make you better. 

You're going to come up with a stronger plan in the future. You're going to have that insight. Now, Kurt, our CMO, I was going through somewhat of a rough patch and he encouraged me to really kind of dive in and find just the creativity in what was considered some of my most mundane work. And he was right about that exercise. I definitely was able to put forth some creative thinking skills to get through some, to get through some challenging situations. 

And like I said, some things that would seem mundane to others actually ended up becoming really fun to me. And so now I kind of enjoy these moments, but I think that one thing that I would like for our listeners to take away from today is that there can be creativity in any position that you have. You don't have to be a copywriter. You don't have to be on creative ops, or you don't even have to be a podcast host. You can tap into creative outlets or bring whatever it is that you do outside of work. 

You can find those lessons within those hobbies and bring those into your workspace and ultimately become more successful with what you do. 

 (24m 17s): When I really liked on the, on the subject of like, I feel like circling back, like on the subject of like failure and, and how that's even growth, even things like so ma so things as small as I think it's just what you take from that experience. And like, yes, we're all involved in these creative endeavors in our lives. It's a mix of, yes, it's a creative thing that we're into, but it's also a big mix of who we are as people. Right. And I think it, it there's that desire there to be creative. And it's when you can learn to tap into that. And I think even to Ari and Nathan's point where they like to try on different things, I think for them even more, it pushes even further because you're learning new skill sets, you're continuing to push yourself. 

And so in the thought of failure, like even the small things, and I think this is sometimes where like my brain goes, like I try to fit it into boxes. Like how can I make a story fit into shift into what, you know, the story I want to tell, because essentially that's what theater is, storytelling and onto the topic of failure and like small stuff, like learning lines, even like who even thinks of this. Like in the most immediate sense, you're learning lines for your show, right? Like, okay, like I'm helping my brain be agile. I'm putting all these things in and learning a whole show, but there's a failure process that goes along with that too. 

If you've got a director telling you you're going to be off book in a week and you've got 23 seats to do, you're like, how am I going to do this? Obviously you start earlier in production, but that first night off book, there's a funny, a funny kind of joke amongst stage managers who are, you know, most frequently like the, a hold book for shows when you're running through that off-book first night is a lie because of that first off book night, you're never really, it's very seldom that you're like going through the show perfectly on your first night. So as you stumble through what I found personally is like, even in those moments, I'm, I'm one of those ones that learns through doing something. 

If I have that terrible, like brain wracking mode of like, oh, I dropped this line or like, oh, this line got noted tonight. My brain never forgets it again. And so even in those moments, they're in service to like the larger picture of what you're trying to create. And so just like just weird things that you wouldn't think like, yes, this is something I'm going to put on a resume down there one day, but I made it all helps in service to that stuff. 

 (26m 26s): I, it's funny that you mentioned putting stuff on resumes because I remember wrestling with whether or not I wanted to put playing roller Derby in my resume or my cover letter. And I was like, you know what, it's something that I do a lot. It takes up a lot of my time, but it also is attached to leadership and team building and community building and production and all of these things. And I think a lot of people are actually kind of scared to mention what they do outside of work on, you know, kind of like a professional, official document. 

But at the same time, it was also kind of an icebreaker for interviews or for people who just wanted to get to know their candidates a little bit more. And it also kind of like on, on my end showed me, oh, they're, they're actually reading these things that I'm sending over it, they're actually interested. And they, they really want to know who's working for them. And it wasn't just kind of, you know, you, you copy paste your resume over and over when you were looking for a job. So I, I think I would love to see more people mentioning hobbies on resumes 

 (27m 32s): As someone who does a lot of hiring. I, I enjoy seeing what other people do outside of work. And to your point, Ari, I also look at what are you doing and what kind of soft skills, even though I hate the term soft skills, because they are valid skills that can be brought to the workplace, but what kind of soft skills can you bring with you from your hobbies too? And to your point about roller Derby, I also struggled with whether or not I should put theater on my resume and the more I thought about it, I was like, well, sure, I should, because I'm a director and that shows leadership. 

And I know how to work with people and guide people through difficult situations. And that should be a skill that I showcase. So I definitely agree with you about adding what you do outside of work too, to your resume. Just go for it. 

 (28m 27s): I'm just going to add sourdough to my LinkedIn really quickly bad guys. 

 (28m 30s): I mean, that is a selling point, Nate, you know, you're like I bring the bread and butter. 

 (28m 35s): You can all endorse me on that. 

 (28m 38s): Yeah. I will endorse you. I'll give you a LinkedIn endorsement on that. Bread is the case where failures are potentially just as delicious as successes. 

 (28m 45s): I honestly, I do make that, that, that quips often it's like I get to eat the failures. There's, there've been very few cases where it was so bad that I literally couldn't eat it. Those are, those are sad, but you know, it is all part of the process. 

 (28m 58s): Shouldn't be your, your LinkedIn tagline failures are just as delicious. 

 (29m 4s): You know, something Lindsay said made me think of this. You know, Lindsay, you were talking about the interaction you have with Curt. And what struck me is how, what you actually presented Kurt in bringing up that, that problem you were having was a kind of creative problem for him as a manager. And I don't think people think of management as a creative role, but the way that he helped you figure out how to deal with that yourself, that kind of interplay that being open to not just being like, well, just figure it out or something like very closed like that as a manager to open up and say like, okay, how can I help this person deal with this thing that we, you know, we all have these kinds of problems that we need creative insight on. 

And yeah, I just thought it was a really cool example of, you know, even just at a managerial level, the ability to, to be open and to, you know, think outside of that, to experiment that say why didn't, why don't you try this? Or let's see if we can, you know, figure this out together. That is such a needed approach in leadership and in management. So we've been talking a lot about creativity in general and all the ways that you guys are creative. And we could definitely keep talking about that for hours. 

I think our listeners might tune out, but you know, it's, it's just an endlessly interesting topic. So to take us home here, I would love to hear each of you just kind of one takeaway that you have, what's one final thing that you'd like to leave listeners with about creativity, either your form of creativity or just creativity in general and Brit we'll start with you. 

 (30m 34s): I mean, yeah, absolutely. I think creativity lives in everybody in one form or another, it's just tapping into what is your brand of creativity? I would definitely recommend it for me personally. It's been a savior as far as taking a moment to rebalance, but then also taking a break from my hobby is a necessary thing. So it really, it teaches you to like, know yourself, know others around you and really like help, you know, who you are as like a full person. And it's been super beneficial in my work life. I've made friends through it. I work at arm con both essentially because of theater and meeting Lindsay. 

So that's, that should have been like number one thing on my creativity got me a job in a roundabout way. So yeah, just, I mean, you, you never know where it's going to take you, so don't limit yourself to having, you know, certain experience experience at all and let that creativity drive you in life to bigger and brighter opportunities. 

 (31m 28s): One thing I have tried to do as this is really the most managerial responsibility I've had at any job is I've tried to engage with my teammates, creative lives in as many ways as possible. And that includes like I go to all of Britt's shows, but beyond that, like I, I really want to try to give folks on my team opportunities to bring their creativity to work in one way or another. I was really excited that Evan on some previous episodes got a chance to show off his, his musical expertise. 

There was one meeting we had, which I remember to this day, which I really loved where Ari mentioned some poetry that she was working on and I encouraged slash bullied her into reading a poem for us. And I really loved it. And hopefully, hopefully she thinks it was encouragement and not bullying, but you know, I definitely don't want to make people, I don't want to push people too far outside of their comfort zones and make them feel vulnerable. And you know, more than I think, I think some degree of vulnerability is, is helpful and good, but I don't think it's my place to make people feel vulnerable. 

But I think encouraging people to embrace vulnerability is something I like doing. And I'm encouraging people to bring creativity, to work in all those different ways, I think is a great way to do that. 

 (32m 49s): I just have to throw it out there that Tony is like number one, hype man. Oh 

 (32m 53s): Yeah. 100%. Yeah. 

 (32m 55s): 10 for 10 can confirm, can confer. 

 (32m 58s): I love hearing that. Thank you. 

 (32m 59s): We need to get you a mug that says number one 

 (33m 1s): When I ran for, so it's funny that you mentioned that Tony, because to be honest, I did feel very vulnerable in that moment, but I did not feel bullied. And that was, that was the first time that I had shared poetry with coworkers in my entire career. So I really genuinely thank you for encouraging me to do that because it, even though it was scary in the end, I was more proud of myself for doing it. So thank you for that. 

 (33m 29s): I love hearing that Ari. Yeah. And I want to hear more not right now. 

 (33m 35s): That's not to say we won't put you on the spot right here, but 

 (33m 39s): Well, I think for me, maybe kind of my biggest takeaway is basically that problem solving at work is very simply put just connecting different dots. And the more dots of experience you collect either through your life experiences, your hobbies, the scary things that you force yourself to do. The more of those dots that you can collect, the more interesting and engaging concepts or solutions or problem solving you can do.